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View Full Version : Who's at fault



Blakester
Aug 25th, 2010, 12:20 PM
I would say neither but the guy with the camera sure gets out of his line going over the wheelie bump. This has happened to me in the same spot a few times. I know we always preach it is the responsibility of the passer to make a clean pass, but in cases like this people need to hold there lines instead of drifting. Oh and I happen to know the guy that went by him and rubbed elbows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9-WP3_z5Io

mrlopez
Aug 25th, 2010, 12:30 PM
Damn that's was freaky and unexpected but yeah I agree neither

yoageallen
Aug 25th, 2010, 12:35 PM
The Guy passing. You are responsible to pass in a safe manner. That is the rule. Accidents do happen though. No one crashed, is some one butt hurt? I would be responsible if I ran into someone. This does not look like A group, where is the six foot cushion?

SOUN1
Aug 25th, 2010, 01:43 PM
The Guy passing. You are responsible to pass in a safe manner. That is the rule. Accidents do happen though. No one crashed, is some one butt hurt? I would be responsible if I ran into someone. This does not look like A group, where is the six foot cushion?

Th passer is at fault.

JonJon
Aug 25th, 2010, 01:44 PM
The guy with the camera grabbed a handful of throttle and jumped left. Nothing the passer could really do. In this case does it even matter? I mean, no harm no foul right? :confused2:

habu
Aug 25th, 2010, 03:04 PM
Racers rule, has and will always be, passer is responsible for a clean pass.

However I think theres more to to it.

One of my biggest complaints, and looks to me that someone(s) in the wrong group.

There are riders that ride the wrong groups, most of time to hang out with there friends. Some clubs monitor this well and others dont.

One these days its going to get nasty and the videos are going to be used as evidence in a civil case.

Win or lose, we all lose.

It will drive the insurance costs up and make it more costly to operate.

Lastly, everyone needs to remember that at the end of the day, its just a track day.

yoageallen
Aug 25th, 2010, 03:07 PM
Racers rule, has and will always be, passer is responsible for a clean pass.

However I think theres more to to it.

One of my biggest complaints, and looks to me that someone(s) in the wrong group.

There are riders that ride the wrong groups, most of time to hang out with there friends. Some clubs monitor this well and others dont.

One these days its going to get nasty and the videos are going to be used as evidence in a civil case.

Win or lose, we all lose.

It will drive the insurance costs up and make it more costly to operate.

Lastly, everyone needs to remember that at the end of the day, its just a track day.werd

DeVil
Aug 25th, 2010, 05:30 PM
i would say the passer, the camera guy look to me like he was going to make a passed, probably didn't know that the guy behind him gonna make that moved..i know that wheelie hill..:D if there are two bikes in front of me i won't make that pass there..its just me..:)

MadKaw
Aug 25th, 2010, 06:22 PM
I've never ridden track, maybe some day so I dont know the rules.

If you change your line to pass should you check just to make sure someone isnt on your side?

It just looks like the camera guy was pulling out to pass when the guy behind him passed at the same time.

rated_r1
Aug 25th, 2010, 06:30 PM
I've never ridden track, maybe some day so I dont know the rules.

If you change your line to pass should you check just to make sure someone isnt on your side?

It just looks like the camera guy was pulling out to pass when the guy behind him passed at the same time.

I just did my first tack day a few weeks ago. That's 1 thing I could not get comfortable with "passing" there were many times I could have passed people but was nervous. Someone would pass me and them so I would follow. Until the 2nd half of the day, I was a bit more comfortable in passing. Still nervous but just a tad more confident in a safe pass.

Jetstream01
Aug 25th, 2010, 07:10 PM
I think this is just a crappy situation. Technically yeah it's the passer's fault here but the camera guy did jump out. I would blame neither, even if there was a crash. Maybe shouldn't be riding so aggressive on a track day though (as far as overtaking I mean).

D8onaSE
Aug 25th, 2010, 07:35 PM
I would say neither but the guy with the camera sure gets out of his line going over the wheelie bump. This has happened to me in the same spot a few times. I know we always preach it is the responsibility of the passer to make a clean pass, but in cases like this people need to hold there lines instead of drifting. Oh and I happen to know the guy that went by him and rubbed elbows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9-WP3_z5Io

If a "plated" rider, couldn't read the line change that the camera guy was about to make, he truly is a novice.

It's too bad that "STAMPP" didn't show the camera guy, as much courtesy, as the camera guy was to the rider he was about to pass. I class it as a "********" move, and dismissing it with a little wave...WTF?

If you are catching up to someone, especially at the rate this guy obviously was, allow for the "less skilled" rider in front of you, to do something unexpected (even though in this case it was clear to me). After all, you have the advantage, of being able to see him/her, but he/she is probably unaware of your "20".

OK, so he messes up your perfect lap, if you ride smart, you'll have all day to work on it. Skill building is the whole purpose of "track days".

Every rider's meeting I have been to, they have stressed the point, to ride smart and be courteous, we're all here to have fun. There's no prize money, no trophies, and we're all winners if we go home unscaved.

:zz2cents:

GsxR1000Ryda
Aug 25th, 2010, 08:02 PM
It was a track incident. No one crashed so whats all the big fuss?? That was nothing compared to what I saw when Houa and Calkidd "touched" at WSIR.

wildbear
Aug 25th, 2010, 08:36 PM
That was just plain scary! :popcorn:

Calkidd
Aug 25th, 2010, 08:52 PM
That was just plain scary! :popcorn:
Hell, that is normal riding between Kidmoua and I.:evilgrin0013:

yoageallen
Aug 25th, 2010, 08:56 PM
I have a fifty dollar bill that says the camera guy had no idea he was getting passed. How is he supposed to accomodate without looking over his shoulder all the time. Which is more reckless in my opinion. We teach riders to not pay attention to what is behind them at all. Tell me you have never moved your line when looking behind you. This is an unnessicary move on the track. This is also why we prefer not to have advanced riders in less advanced groups. More advanced riders are more consistant than novice riders and tend to forget that a novice rider will tend to be more erratic, because they generally ride in a similar skill group. The novice rider technically has the right of way on the track.

Calkidd
Aug 25th, 2010, 09:06 PM
I watched the video again and I don't think the rider with the camera did anything out of the ordinary. First off i don't think that is an ideal place to pass during a track day. Secondly I would have thought from the get go that the camera rider was going to pass the rider in front of him just by the difference in speed and line of the slower rider.

Wile_E_Coyote
Aug 25th, 2010, 09:25 PM
I just see it as a chain of events. The first dude has no business looking over his shoulder in the first place. Ride your ride. The camera guy could have safely passed right off the bat if he had been more decisive. The guy that made the risky pass, may have been banking on the camera guy to not swerve out as much, or maybe make the pass sooner. Nothing bad happened, end of story.

DeVil
Aug 25th, 2010, 09:48 PM
good point everyone...from what i learned so far (trackday) ride your pace and don't worry about a guy behind you, you should concentrate whats in front of you especially a rider in front of you because you never know when he's going to cross your line or be in front of you like the video, if you going to make a pass you better do it fast no hesitation or else..just my 2 cents...:D

D8onaSE
Aug 25th, 2010, 10:51 PM
After reading several comments, that the camera guys swerved off his line, I'm reposting the link, to make sure we're all watching the same video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9-WP3_z5Io

If you watch it without your beer goggles, you can see him pick a wider line, coming out of Cotton Corners, to make the exit of Cotton Corners through the Grapevine, a single apex turn, to set up a pass on the slower rider, somewhere around the "wheelie" hill. I even applaud camera guy, for holding his line, but waiting to get on the gas, until he knew he could make a safe passing move.

Now the fact that STAMPP couldn't see that, maybe he needs to hang up his leathers. A smarter move, would have been to wait until after Club Corner or the Bus Stop, and it would have just been the two of them, and squirted on by, no problem.

Remember, track day, not race day.

For those who think it's no big deal, luckily it all ended well. The point is, dicing with someone you ride with all the time, you know, and trust, hell, I can appreciate that, but when you're mixing it up with a bunch of guys you don't know, leave a safety buffer. You might know what you are capable of, but maybe the rider you're about to scare the crap out of...just play nice.

Again, track day, not race day.

Oh, and if you do it to me, expect me up in your grill when we get back to the paddock...I haven't survived 30 years of street riding, to be taken out by some ego fueled wanker.

CrAsH
Aug 26th, 2010, 12:23 AM
Well least he didn't do it on purpose. He even looked back to make sure he was ok

Wile_E_Coyote
Aug 26th, 2010, 08:38 AM
If you watch it without your beer goggles, you can see him pick a wider line, coming out of Cotton Corners, to make the exit of Cotton Corners through the Grapevine, a single apex turn, to set up a pass on the slower rider, somewhere around the "wheelie" hill. I even applaud camera guy, for holding his line, but waiting to get on the gas, until he knew he could make a safe passing move.

So differing opinions are made with beer goggles on? :rolleyes:

Maybe you could watch the video one more time. But as I have gone through it slowly and in real time, I definitely see that the camera guy moves further to the left as he blips the throttle to make the pass. Use the asphalt patch for reference.

Since it was a Trackdaz event, maybe Dustin can chime in?

JonJon
Aug 26th, 2010, 08:46 AM
I think you guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. (did I even use that right? I don't think im old enough to be using that analogy) :rolleyes:

LiLBugsyRYder
Aug 26th, 2010, 08:53 AM
i dont know racing rules but to me it looked like the middle guy moved to far left to try and pass so the outside guy was getting screwed either way lol at least no one got hurt! i hope

trackpimp
Aug 26th, 2010, 08:54 AM
Dude making the pass actually followed the rider for some time. He saw an opportunity to pass and went for it. The problem was, in the middle of the pass, he didn't anticipate the other rider to swoop out like that.
Unfortunately, that spot at BW is a bad spot to pass for the reason above. If you don't time it right, you can either make a connection with a "swooper" on the inside of the next corner.. Or the rider you're passing can do as the video illustrates. It was Stampp's fault as he was the passing rider... and he chatted with the rider about it afterwards.

I spoke to both of these riders during the event. Neither seemed to harbor any sort of negative energy. Truthfully, the rider doing the video was like "Holy Crap, that was bad-ass...":D

Any of you passing judgment on Stampp's mistake need to remember that everyone makes mistakes on the track. I myself have had a mistake in timing/judgment of what another rider was going to do.. And ended up with a totalled bike and having to "leave early" if you know what I mean.

DeVil
Aug 26th, 2010, 10:01 AM
I think you guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. (did I even use that right? I don't think im old enough to be using that analogy) :rolleyes:

:laugh: totally

Blakester
Aug 26th, 2010, 11:45 AM
It's too bad that "STAMPP" didn't show the camera guy, as much courtesy, as the camera guy was to the rider he was about to pass. I class it as a "********" move, and dismissing it with a little wave...WTF?


I just couldn't let this one go, so what was he suppose to do, pull on the side of the track, stop him and give him his most sincere apology. He looked back, I am sure he was very glad he didn't cause the dude to go down and gave him a thumbs up. Come on dude, like I said, things happen on the track and we all learn from it. I never posted this up to have people to talk crap about Stampp and kinda take it to a personal level like you seem to have done. Calm down dude...

Jsdrider
Aug 26th, 2010, 01:48 PM
I just couldn't let this one go, so what was he suppose to do, pull on the side of the track, stop him and give him his most sincere apology. He looked back, I am sure he was very glad he didn't cause the dude to go down and gave him a thumbs up. Come on dude, like I said, things happen on the track and we all learn from it. I never posted this up to have people to talk crap about Stampp and kinda take it to a personal level like you seem to have done. Calm down dude...


I agree Derik...

sPAnKy1600
Aug 26th, 2010, 02:50 PM
I have a better question...





































Who Cares?

habu
Aug 26th, 2010, 06:45 PM
At least some of us know the difference between are elbows and knees...!

rated_r1
Aug 26th, 2010, 06:50 PM
At least some of us know the difference between are elbows and knees...!

:popcorn:

sPAnKy1600
Aug 26th, 2010, 07:05 PM
At least some of us know the difference between are elbows and knees...!

At least when I look down I can still see my knees.:p

junior
Aug 26th, 2010, 07:36 PM
At least when I look down I can still see my knees.:p

:popcorn:....

Devlausdan
Aug 26th, 2010, 10:01 PM
remember that everyone makes mistakes on the track. I myself have had a mistake in timing/judgment of what another rider was going to do..

:word:





Sit out a round..

D8onaSE
Aug 27th, 2010, 12:51 PM
so what was he suppose to do, pull on the side of the track, stop him and give him his most sincere apology.

Could you be a little more dramatic?...

Derik, I'm sorry if you feel I am personally attacking your friend, perhaps this is a little close to home for you to be objective.

If I had made that move, I would still have called it a "********" move, I'm not saying your friend is a ********, he's probably a nice bloke for all I know, my comments are on the evidence at hand. I am entitled to my opinion, just as you are to yours. If you don't like controversy, don't post anything that could be controversial.

If it had been a "race", I agree with those who give it "incident" status, but at a "track day", I still say it was poor judgment, as the camera guy surely didn't swerve 6 feet across when he finally got on the gas. I am glad to read you friend had the decency to go and smooth things over after the session, and everything was fine between them.

Wile, I'm sorry you didn't read my beer goggles comment, with as much tongue in cheek as I wrote it...

I am by no means "perfect", but I have learned a lot from my "experiences", those of others, and am grateful for my mentors along the way.

Maybe this is a little personal to me, because I have lost enough friends, due to someone else's poor judgment.

Probably the thing that stuck in my mind most, when preparing to do my first track day, was when an instructor said, "Make sure your skill level, matches your excitement level."

Perhaps something else we should all keep in mind, is my skill level, isn't necessarily your skill level, or the skill level of the riders I/you, are catching up to, or lapping.

I have done 9 track days now, 2 with Red Shift, and the rest with The Track Club, all at Button Willow. The organizers do their best to provide the safest environment, to go out and have some fun, without the worry of road hazards (including CHP), but we as riders, need to do our part too. They don't ask much, ride to your own ability, pass smart, watch the flags, and have fun.

My first day was in Group C with Red Shift, learning the track, and half the day in the classroom, so those laps don't really count. It's been Group B since then, and of the other 400 or so, potential laps I did, or could have done, possibly 150 or so I would say were, good, clean, fast laps. A further 60-70 lost to red flags (probably due to skill level not matching excitement level), and the rest were interrupted by waiting for safest passing opportunity, or with bottle-necks of slower riders. They have as much right to be out having fun as I do, and the last thing I want, is to get caught up in an "incident", so if I want to work on a particular corner, I'll detour through the "hot pit", and put some distance between them.

I guess to sum it up, skilled riders, remember back, to when you were the guy, you're about to pass...

McLuvin_R1
Aug 27th, 2010, 01:07 PM
haha whats a bloke :popcorn:

MadKaw
Aug 27th, 2010, 01:16 PM
haha whats a bloke :popcorn:

British for "dude"

Blakester
Aug 27th, 2010, 03:25 PM
Could you be a little more dramatic?...

Derik, I'm sorry if you feel I am personally attacking your friend, perhaps this is a little close to home for you to be objective.

If I had made that move, I would still have called it a "********" move, I'm not saying your friend is a ********, he's probably a nice bloke for all I know, my comments are on the evidence at hand. I am entitled to my opinion, just as you are to yours. If you don't like controversy, don't post anything that could be controversial.

If it had been a "race", I agree with those who give it "incident" status, but at a "track day", I still say it was poor judgment, as the camera guy surely didn't swerve 6 feet across when he finally got on the gas. I am glad to read you friend had the decency to go and smooth things over after the session, and everything was fine between them.

Wile, I'm sorry you didn't read my beer goggles comment, with as much tongue in cheek as I wrote it...

I am by no means "perfect", but I have learned a lot from my "experiences", those of others, and am grateful for my mentors along the way.

Maybe this is a little personal to me, because I have lost enough friends, due to someone else's poor judgment.

Probably the thing that stuck in my mind most, when preparing to do my first track day, was when an instructor said, "Make sure your skill level, matches your excitement level."

Perhaps something else we should all keep in mind, is my skill level, isn't necessarily your skill level, or the skill level of the riders I/you, are catching up to, or lapping.

I have done 9 track days now, 2 with Red Shift, and the rest with The Track Club, all at Button Willow. The organizers do their best to provide the safest environment, to go out and have some fun, without the worry of road hazards (including CHP), but we as riders, need to do our part too. They don't ask much, ride to your own ability, pass smart, watch the flags, and have fun.

My first day was in Group C with Red Shift, learning the track, and half the day in the classroom, so those laps don't really count. It's been Group B since then, and of the other 400 or so, potential laps I did, or could have done, possibly 150 or so I would say were, good, clean, fast laps. A further 60-70 lost to red flags (probably due to skill level not matching excitement level), and the rest were interrupted by waiting for safest passing opportunity, or with bottle-necks of slower riders. They have as much right to be out having fun as I do, and the last thing I want, is to get caught up in an "incident", so if I want to work on a particular corner, I'll detour through the "hot pit", and put some distance between them.

I guess to sum it up, skilled riders, remember back, to when you were the guy, you're about to pass...

Okay, I never said it wasn't a bad move, I was trying to say how things happen unexpectedly at the track and you need to be aware of them. I never stated that it wasn't a bad place to pass or that the passer may have used bad judgement, by the way, he isn't my friend, just a guy I know. I have met alot of people since I have about 100 trackdays behind me, you meet alot of good dudes. I have seen guys pass on the straightaway giving a 6ft. space and still the guy being passed drifted over into the passing rider, yes, down the middle of the straight and at Willow where the straight is long and wide. I have made plenty of bad moves myself, I was out just this past weekend at BW dicing it up with some guys and I choose to outbreak them into Turn 1 instead of laying back and I ended up too deep into the turn and lost my front end when I dove in. Nice little lowside, but I walked away and no one else got involved or ran me over. I like your understanding and sounds like you are a safe rider and try to follow the rules, a perfect trackday customer. I just wish they were all like you, but there not unfortunately. Hope to see ya at the track then we can go out and do some riding together.

yoageallen
Aug 27th, 2010, 03:45 PM
I think we got it all covered.

mrlopez
Aug 27th, 2010, 03:50 PM
Yup :sleep:

D8onaSE
Aug 27th, 2010, 08:26 PM
Hope to see ya at the track then we can go out and do some riding together.

A couple of like minded buddies and I signed up for Button Willow, Labor Day 9/6, if you happen to be going.

Blakester
Aug 27th, 2010, 08:47 PM
A couple of like minded buddies and I signed up for Button Willow, Labor Day 9/6, if you happen to be going.

That is my plan, I need to talk to Mark and see if he needs me to CR again or can I just go out and play this time, I think I would rather just play.

com3
Jan 26th, 2011, 01:57 PM
i've had a few bumps and/or close calls with riders like that. i wouldn't blame either one of them, really... i mean, it's the rider making the pass's responsibility to get thru cleanly...

in this case, cameraman looked timid on passing a slower rider, while the dude behind was more confident and committed...

cameraman takes a long time to think about what he's going to do, but by then, the more experienced guy behind is already on his way..

totally awesome that after the bump, he turned back and acknowledged the other rider...totally awesome no one hit the deck.

a buncha months ago, i was riding an RSV4 at laguna ...on my warm up lap, t10, i had an instructor shoot across the track at me...nearly punted me off the track...

it's good to be predictable... it's best never to hesitate... but we all learn. :D

here's the instructor nearly punting me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9itKupy_c