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Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 11:44 AM
Instead of dirtying up Gus' camera thread I will make a suspension thread so we can discuss this openly.



What's your defenition of good suspension? I put $400 in my front end and it serves me very well and don't really see a need for anything more.

A set of $10,000.00 superbike forks is "good" suspension, but what good would it do anyone that does track days? Even a set of $2500 cartridges is an overkill.


I would definitely say the superbike forks are overkill. For me, new valving would be fine. New springs down the road. But you're a good enough rider that you would benefit from upgrades.


My front end has full Race Tech Gold valving (compression and rebound) and Race Tech springs with a Elka two rear. I honestly can say this works for me and can not see I would need anything more.


Just to play devil's advocate, have you tried a better setup to see if there is a difference?

I do like your setup Bryan. That's pretty much what I'm going to do. Why not score a front end off a '05-06? I've seen them for sale for not much money. Revalve and respring the forks, plus you'll have the newer style brakes. Just a thought.

The next step would be cartridge insterts and no I have not riden a bike with "better" suspension.

Funny you should ask about modifying my front end. I contemplated about doing the swap, but here is the way I see it.

So let say I did the swap now I have a Up Side Down forks with factory springs and valving (which suck on a Honda) and radial brakes at a cost of about $400 to $500. Now I have to have the forks re-done for my weight and revalve costing another $400 to $500. I mean lets at least do what I have done to my current forks. So now I am in $800-$1000 for a front end only to gain USD forks and radial brakes. I already have forks on my bike and it cost me around $400 to have the front end completely redone.

So why should I spend an extra $500 just for radial brakes and USD forks. Now don't get me wrong there are some advantages to USD forks, but are the advantages noticible on the track?

As far as the brakes are conerned I spent $250 on a Brembo forged radial master cylinder and installed a set of Vesrah RJL race pads. The brakes are freaking phenominal and I can't imagine needed anything more.

Ciner929
Jul 31st, 2008, 11:57 AM
The next step would be cartridge insterts and no I have not riden a bike with "better" suspension.

You didn't like mine? :(

aaw749r
Jul 31st, 2008, 12:17 PM
Brian, you are more than welcom to try my S at the track. Not claiming it is better, just a real good buget minded race set up with the "fast" geometry too. Just no radial brakes.

Just as a comparison to your set up.

What is your weight?
I come in at 210 - nekid.
(and it is not a pretty sight)

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 12:33 PM
Brian, you are more than welcom to try my S at the track. Not claiming it is better, just a real good buget minded race set up with the "fast" geometry too. Just no radial brakes.

Just as a comparison to your set up.

What is your weight?
I come in at 210 - nekid.
(and it is not a pretty sight)Thanks you are too kind. I weight at around 255 with out gear. Not sure that set up would work for me.

That is what suspension is all about being set up and right for the rider. Believe me the only thing Honda about my forks are the tubes. The internals are all Race Tech gold....

poach
Jul 31st, 2008, 12:42 PM
You didn't like mine? :(

Waaaay too soft.:p

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 12:44 PM
You didn't like mine? :(
Sorry sweetheart, but your suspension doesn't compare to what I have on the 600rr.:D

Devlausdan
Jul 31st, 2008, 12:44 PM
Now don't get me wrong there are some advantages to USD forks, but are the advantages noticible on the track?
.

okay.. not to get off topic, but what is or what are the differences in inverted forks versus the old? I'm sure inverted forks are better but I never understood why.

up in smoke
Jul 31st, 2008, 12:55 PM
okay.. not to get off topic, but what is or what are the differences in inverted forks versus the old? I'm sure inverted forks are better but I never understood why.

inverted forks have more rigidity and les unsprung wight.

Jester
Jul 31st, 2008, 12:56 PM
okay.. not to get off topic, but what is or what are the differences in inverted forks versus the old? I'm sure inverted forks are better but I never understood why.Less unsprung weight. I believe that is supposed to help the bike turn quicker. At the level most of us ride, the differance is negligible.

Wile_E_Coyote
Jul 31st, 2008, 12:57 PM
The next step would be cartridge insterts and no I have not riden a bike with "better" suspension.

Funny you should ask about modifying my front end. I contemplated about doing the swap, but here is the way I see it.

So let say I did the swap now I have a Up Side Down forks with factory springs and valving (which suck on a Honda) and radial brakes at a cost of about $400 to $500. Now I have to have the forks re-done for my weight and revalve costing another $400 to $500. I mean lets at least do what I have done to my current forks. So now I am in $800-$1000 for a front end only to gain USD forks and radial brakes. I already have forks on my bike and it cost me around $400 to have the front end completely redone.

So why should I spend an extra $500 just for radial brakes and USD forks. Now don't get me wrong there are some advantages to USD forks, but are the advantages noticible on the track?

As far as the brakes are conerned I spent $250 on a Brembo forged radial master cylinder and installed a set of Vesrah RJL race pads. The brakes are freaking phenominal and I can't imagine needed anything more.

Good points, and I think I agree with you in your situation. Although, I've seen the stock front setup go for under $400 used.

For me, I'm going to get a new rear shock first. It's too soft and I'm not at my SAG for the rear. Then I'll revalve my front forks, and possibly re-spring, but not sure about that yet. I wont go any "tricker" than that at this point. If I find a track bike, then I'll think about the other stuff.

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 12:57 PM
okay.. not to get off topic, but what is or what are the differences in inverted forks versus the old? I'm sure inverted forks are better but I never understood why.Not off topic at all, this thread is all about suspension. I was unable to find hard facts about the pros and cons. I found a few forums with opinions, but you know what they say about opinions.

From what I have read inverted forks have less unsprung weight better springs, but that goes out the door when you modify them. But most of the intelligent comments concerning this subject have all ended with....The differences are not all that noticeable.

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 12:58 PM
inverted forks have more rigidity and

I would have to disagree it is just the opposite. Conventional forks are much more stronger and ridgid.

Devlausdan
Jul 31st, 2008, 12:59 PM
inverted forks have more rigidity and les unsprung wight.

The factories took the same verted fork set up and mounted them inverted. How does the unwanted weight from the old set up get transfer to being less unsprung weigh? Bike dynamic?

Wile_E_Coyote
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:01 PM
I always side with simple logic. If the pros are using inverted forks, then there is a reason... :word:

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:01 PM
Good points, and I think I agree with you in your situation. Although, I've seen the stock front setup go for under $400 used.

For me, I'm going to get a new rear shock first. It's too soft and I'm not at my SAG for the rear. Then I'll revalve my front forks, and possibly re-spring, but not sure about that yet. I wont go any "tricker" than that at this point. If I find a track bike, then I'll think about the other stuff.
Jer, from what you are saying the next "trickier" suspension mods after valving and springs would be cartridges or complete aftermarket forks. Believe me none of us here would benefit from this "Tricker" suspension.

Wile_E_Coyote
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:02 PM
Jer, from what you are saying the next "trickier" suspension mods after valving and springs would be cartridges or complete aftermarket forks. Believe me none of us here would benefit from this "Tricker" suspension.

For me, I would agree. For you, I disagree.

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:02 PM
I always side with simple logic. If the pros are using inverted forks, then there is a reason... :word:Well of course, but we are talking about us Track Bums.

Devlausdan
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:03 PM
I always side with simple logic. If the pros are riding GXSRs and winning with them, then there is a reason... :word:

I hear you. Jer you still ride that honda? :D

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:04 PM
The factories took the same verted fork set up and mounted them inverted. How does the unwanted weight from the old set up get transfer to being less unsprung weigh? Bike dynamic?Think about what parts are moving. The conventional forks are moving the tubes (if you will) and in the Inverted you are moving the shafts. The tubes are much heavier compared to the shafts.

Unsprung weight is HUGE on sportbikes as so it rotating mass.

Devlausdan
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:06 PM
Think about what parts are moving. The conventional forks are moving the tubes (if you will) and in the Inverted you are moving the shafts. The tubes are much heavier compared to the shafts.

Unsprung weight is HUGE on sportbikes as so it rotating mass.

Got it. Perfect explaination.

Wile_E_Coyote
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:08 PM
Bryan, let's try a different comparison.

Take your camera and 'trick' lense setup, which you said had a cost of $2,200 to $2,500. Ok, now lets' take a very nice point and shoot camera. Not sure on the cost, maybe $1K? Is the difference that noticable to the average person when you get down to comparing the finished product? Of course, the nicer setup is better for certain applications, but the point and shoot will do a great job most of the time. But the better camera and lense was worth it to you. Why?

speedjunkie
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:10 PM
always thought one of the big things was better and faster and more accurate adjustability/tuning for inverted vs conventional.

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:13 PM
I see what you are saying and that is a good anology. However, I just don't think my riding skills would benefit for better suspension that what I have now.

up in smoke
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:14 PM
The factories took the same verted fork set up and mounted them inverted. How does the unwanted weight from the old set up get transfer to being less unsprung weigh? Bike dynamic?

i think its more of a rigidity thing with inverted forks. they flex less witch means you dont have to use as much metereal to bild them witch means less unsprug wight.

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:15 PM
always thought one of the big things was better and faster and more accurate adjustability/tuning for inverted vs conventional.That could be, but both styles have compression, rebound and preload which effect the same dynamics in either style.

Wile_E_Coyote
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:16 PM
I see what you are saying and that is a good anology. However, I just don't think my riding skills would benefit for better suspension that what I have now.

Bryan my friend, I think you are selling yourself short. That doesn't mean run out and buy it, but it does mean don't ignore it in the future. Hopefully I get fast enough to have that problem.

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:17 PM
i think its more of a rigidity thing with inverted forks. they flex less witch means you dont have to use as much metereal to bild them witch means less unsprug wight.I honestly don't think rigidity has anything to do it...

kidmoua
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:19 PM
I'm good with my stock components..I wont even notice the difference anyways...

Wile_E_Coyote
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:20 PM
I'm good with my stock components..I wont even notice the difference anyways...

That's because you're one of the few that actually weighs close enough to how the bike is setup for. :pound:

Devlausdan
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:20 PM
always thought one of the big things was better and faster and more accurate adjustability/tuning for inverted vs conventional.

Better compression and rebound? And FASTER? compression and rebound?

Better compression I understand. Faster compression? :confused2:

up in smoke
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:21 PM
I honestly don't think rigidity has anything to do it...

we need some one who knows what they are talking about to answer this .

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:21 PM
I'm good with my stock components..I wont even notice the difference anyways...I think you would be surprised you might not need springs, but proper valving works wonders.

speedjunkie
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:29 PM
Better compression and rebound? And FASTER? compression and rebound?

Better compression I understand. Faster compression? :confused2:



well not faster compression....faster adjustability. but then again the only conventional fork i knew was my sv and that only had preload. i put new race tech springs, gold emulators, and oil in them but to adjust comp/rebound i had to take them back apart and adj the gold valve that sits inside the fork. which was a little more involved then just turn a couple clicks in or out.


do conventional forks have seperate high and low speed settings for compression/rebound?

up in smoke
Jul 31st, 2008, 01:44 PM
well not faster compression....faster adjustability. but then again the only conventional fork i knew was my sv and that only had preload. i put new race tech springs, gold emulators, and oil in them but to adjust comp/rebound i had to take them back apart and adj the gold valve that sits inside the fork. which was a little more involved then just turn a couple clicks in or out. do conventional forks have seperate high and low speed settings for compression/rebound? Yes

Jester
Jul 31st, 2008, 03:29 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsprung_weight

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 04:11 PM
well not faster compression....faster adjustability. but then again the only conventional fork i knew was my sv and that only had preload. i put new race tech springs, gold emulators, and oil in them but to adjust comp/rebound i had to take them back apart and adj the gold valve that sits inside the fork. which was a little more involved then just turn a couple clicks in or out.


do conventional forks have seperate high and low speed settings for compression/rebound?
I think what you are speaking of is the shim stack. Yes this will effect your compression/rebound in forks that do not have adjustable compression/rebound settings.

My forks, which are conventional, have compression and rebound adjustments and do not require them to be taken apart to adjust the shim stack. But there is a shim stack there, but that is another story.

Hight/low speed settings was a luxury that true race bikes had. However, up until recently street bikes did not have these adjustments. But as you can see they are slowly starting to install low/high speed setting in the higher end bikes.

To be honest low/high speed is definitely a black art to adjust. I have heard that most racers are sticking with 2-way rear shocks rather than the 3-way because of easy and simpler adjustments. What I am getting at high/low speed adjustments can be like brain surgery.

LDH
Jul 31st, 2008, 04:13 PM
there is a lot of adjustability in modern suspension pieces and chassis' so I would try that first. I think 98% of the bikes on the road are probably still at their factory settings.

aaw749r
Jul 31st, 2008, 04:17 PM
Thanks you are too kind. I weight at around 255 with out gear. Not sure that set up would work for me.

That is what suspension is all about being set up and right for the rider. Believe me the only thing Honda about my forks are the tubes. The internals are all Race Tech gold....

I know the spring rates will be a little soft but ride it just so you can possibly compare the inverted forks to the std forks. They both have been revalved with reputable parts - you have the race tech gold and I have the ohlins internals. I also have an aftermarket rear shock with more adjustments than I'd like to think about (which is why I will pay someone who knows wtf they are doing). Next track day we'll swap for a couple of laps.

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 04:20 PM
I know the spring rates will be a little soft but ride it just so you can possibly compare the inverted forks to the std forks. They both have been revalved with reputable parts - you have the race tech gold and I have the ohlins internals. I also have an aftermarket rear shock with more adjustments than I'd like to think about (which is why I will pay someone who knows wtf they are doing). Next track day we'll swap for a couple of laps.
Sure that would be fun for sure. Next time you hook up with TI2TT seek out Shaun with Trackaholics. He is very good with suspension setting and really knows how to read the tires and make the suitable adjustments.

up in smoke
Jul 31st, 2008, 04:37 PM
check this out.

http://www.yamaha-motor.ca/technology/technology.php?group=M&tech=IF

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 04:45 PM
check this out.

http://www.yamaha-motor.ca/technology/technology.php?group=M&tech=IF
Well there you go. I stand corrected.


Inverted Forks

Inverted forks are positioned on the motorcycle opposite or upside down when compared to conventional forks. The leverage forces that cause fork flex are greatest at the triple clamp area and weakest at the front axle. On inverted forks, the large outer tube of the fork is clamped in the bike’s triple clamps and the sliding inner tube holds the axle and front wheel. By locating the large diameter tubes in the triple clamp, the inverted or upside down fork have their largest and strongest parts combating the highest stress. This arrangement gives the forks high rigidity, which improves their response by reducing the side loading of the internal bushings (sliding surfaces). This kind of response is particularly important in high performance applications. Most inverted forks use cartridge-type damping systems.

Also, since the damping mechanisms are now held by the triple clamps, unsprung weight is minimized. Reducing unsprung weight is one of the biggest contributors to quality suspension performance, particularly for featherweight motorcycles like the YZ series or R1 and R6.

yoageallen
Jul 31st, 2008, 06:26 PM
Bryan doesn't know what he is talking about. He just has Shawn at Trackaholics do all of his suspension settings and mods. This is also what I do too. It is just easier and a lot less hassle. Might be cheaper in the long run too. He has forgotten more than we know.

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 06:42 PM
Bryan doesn't know what he is talking about. :confused2:

yoageallen
Jul 31st, 2008, 06:48 PM
Relax Bryan, just poking. Did it work?

Sparrow
Jul 31st, 2008, 07:31 PM
what rider weight are the bikes generally built around. i weigh between 135-140 i did some adjusting and i think mine feels good. i would like to have a pro check it out so i can really tell what a good setup is.

Devlausdan
Jul 31st, 2008, 07:57 PM
what rider weight are the bikes generally built around. i weigh between 135-140 i did some adjusting and i think mine feels good. i would like to have a pro check it out so i can really tell what a good setup is.

My personal opinion. From my experience, you really don't know if you have a good to great suspension set up until you take your bike to it's extreme capabilities at a control environment like the track.

I thought my stock set up was pretty good for the streets. Well, that's about all it was good for.. the streets. I never knew how far off my bike was until I took it to the tracks. I wasn't slow, but my bike's front end and rear struggle to absorb the uneven ground through a very fast and long turn. The bike bounce a lot and I had to fight it while trying to still maintain an acceptable speed through the turn.

I got off the track immediately and had the suspension worked on by the pros there. Even though it's still stock suspension, the bike was a whole new bike through the very same turn. I will even say that it was more confident inspiring to take the turn harder, faster, and lean farther because the bike just held it's line.

Now, bring the bike back to the streets, the bike was an even better street machine.

You need to have it look at.

Sparrow
Jul 31st, 2008, 08:03 PM
cool thanks. ill see when i get to the track. im judging my suspension right now on hard hill riding.

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 08:42 PM
My personal opinion. From my experience, you really don't know if you have a good to great suspension set up until you take your bike to it's extreme capabilities at a control environment like the track.

I thought my stock set up was pretty good for the streets. Well, that's about all it was good for.. the streets. I never knew how far off my bike was until I took it to the tracks. I wasn't slow, but my bike's front end and rear struggle to absorb the uneven ground through a very fast and long turn. The bike bounce a lot and I had to fight it while trying to still maintain an acceptable speed through the turn.

I got off the track immediately and had the suspension worked on by the pros there. Even though it's still stock suspension, the bike was a whole new bike through the very same turn. I will even say that it was more confident inspiring to take the turn harder, faster, and lean farther because the bike just held it's line.

Now, bring the bike back to the streets, the bike was an even better street machine.

You need to have it look at.
Dan, I like you, but you are giving some false info here bro. The statement about taking the bike to the extreme to figure out the suspension is not an accurate statement. This is not the case and suspension is not designed for high speed only.

You can not compare suspension setup at the track to what you set up for the street.

Sparrow, your weight is right on for the suspension you have. Get a good idea what rebound and compression do to the bike before you go and start twisiting knobs. I would suggest going to a track day only to have a suspension tech set up your bike for the street. For $20 you know it will be done right.

Devlausdan
Jul 31st, 2008, 09:33 PM
Dan, I like you, but you are giving some false info here bro. The statement about taking the bike to the extreme to figure out the suspension is not an accurate statement. This is not the case and suspension is not designed for high speed only.

You can not compare suspension setup at the track to what you set up for the street.

Sparrow, your weight is right on for the suspension you have. Get a good idea what rebound and compression do to the bike before you go and start twisiting knobs. I would suggest going to a track day only to have a suspension tech set up your bike for the street. For $20 you know it will be done right.

okay.. call it bad info but not meant to be false info. :)

Oh remember when I first met you at figbucks, we talked about suspension and I asked you, "isn't firm better?" You answered that factory stock is just about right for my weight. Well, I was convinced at that time that firm is the way to go because it felt fine. Well, you guys took me to a few track days and I discovered first hand that my firm set up was not right for me or my bike. And the suspension guys at the track soften it and adjusted it accordingly. Not too soft. Not too firm. But right for my weight and bike.

I did say in my opinion and experience.

Yeah, I should had left the "take your bike to it's extreme" out. Confusing. I meant take your bike to a place where you can ride enough time around the same point/turn to gather enough feed back to make an assessment.

up in smoke
Jul 31st, 2008, 09:57 PM
Bryan doesn't know what he is talking about some times. he thinks he knows but he doesn't. just keep that in mind:)

Oh, i have a big mouth and its full of opinions.:o

motobigboy
Jul 31st, 2008, 10:03 PM
Dan, I like you, but you are giving some false info here bro. The statement about taking the bike to the extreme to figure out the suspension is not an accurate statement. This is not the case and suspension is not designed for high speed only.

You can not compare suspension setup at the track to what you set up for the street.

Sparrow, your weight is right on for the suspension you have. Get a good idea what rebound and compression do to the bike before you go and start twisiting knobs. I would suggest going to a track day only to have a suspension tech set up your bike for the street. For $20 you know it will be done right.

hey calkidd, so for 20 bucks my bike can be set up for street use? would this be for anyone for just track day riders?

Devlausdan
Jul 31st, 2008, 10:08 PM
hey calkidd, so for 20 bucks my bike can be set up for street use? would this be for anyone for just track day riders?

It's free to get into the tracks. Only track riders have to pay track fees to ride the track. Bring your bike and have the suspension guys adjust it for a one time fee of $20. But that doesn't mean it's dialed in perfectly until you take it out a few times on the track. If you're riding the tracks, then that allows you to test out the set up and take the bike back for additional adjustments or compensations to get it better. $40 gets you an all day suspension tune.

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 10:37 PM
Buttonwillow will have you sign a release form regardless if you are riding or not. I don't believe they just charge track riders, this is their fee to enter their property. But like I have said it has varied just about every time I have gone there.

Calkidd
Jul 31st, 2008, 10:37 PM
Bryan doesn't know what he is talking about some times. he thinks he knows but he doesn't. just keep that in mind:)

Oh, i have a big mouth and its full of opinions.:o
pppfffttttt.....:rolleyes:

CenCalR6
Aug 3rd, 2008, 02:14 PM
My 03 R6 had 11,600 miles when I got it with stock suspension. The thing would float in turns and was very unnerving. I took it to my buddy's crew chief and they maxed everything out front and rear and it still would bounce. They schooled me on my options and I did some looking around.

The following week I found a used Ohlins rear shock on ebay. Won that. A couple weeks later I found a set of used stock forks outfitted with the Ohlins FGK114 25mm cartridges. I was the only person to bid on those. I have a $3200 suspension for $1200.

I absolutely LOVE it! My suspension is dialed in perfectly. At the track, my buddy who races and the Catalyst Reaction suspension tech were impressed by how perfectly my tires were wearing. I did the suspension swap myself and dialed it all in as well.

kidmoua
Aug 3rd, 2008, 02:37 PM
Buttonwillow will have you sign a release form regardless if you are riding or not. I don't believe they just charge track riders, this is their fee to enter their property. But like I have said it has varied just about every time I have gone there.

I didn't have to sign a release form nor paid an entrance fee when my wife and I came to BW to take pictures of you and Adrian..

Calkidd
Aug 4th, 2008, 04:56 PM
I didn't have to sign a release form nor paid an entrance fee when my wife and I came to BW to take pictures of you and Adrian..That place is very inconsistent.

up in smoke
Aug 4th, 2008, 04:57 PM
That place is very inconsistent.

yep